NAPA–I spent Wednesday and Thursday in this idyllic locale at the Tech Policy Summit, an annual gathering for tech-industry types to debate many of the issues I cover and care about: intellectual property, Internet governance, online identity, telecom competition and American competitiveness.

My contribution to the proceedings was moderating a discussion on copyright policy Wednesday afternoon between Jonathan Taplin, a professor at the University of Southern California and director of USC’s Annenberg Innovation Lab, and Mike Masnick, founder of Floor64 and editor of Techdirt, a regular read of mine.

I knew that the two would disagree about quite a few things, especially after re-reading this post from Masnick critiquing an earlier talk by Taplin–and that I’ve agreed with a lot of Masnick’s tech-policy work. So I thought I’d try to start on neutral ground, by observing how using technology to automate and accelerate a human activity can upset people who had no earlier objection to it.

I brought up one of my favorite examples of this, noting that after my car stereo was stolen with a CD in it, nobody would have objected if I burned a new disc from a digital copy I’d made myself–but what if that copy was a friend’s? What if it was a stranger’s, found online? (The prop I used at the podium was my copy of The Band’s The Last Waltz; Taplin produced the movie that yielded that soundtrack.) Then I observed that Masnick wasn’t a fan of using software to automatically ticket red-light violators, asked my first question–and things got a little contentious.

When the organizers post the video of the conversation, you’ll want to watch it. In the meantime, you can get a sense of the proceedings from the tweets by audience members, archived after the jump.

Update, 6/25/2012: The video of our panel is now up at the TPS site. Enjoy!

#tps2012 @robpegoraro: If your CD is stolen, you might have it backed up at home, but what if it you download it form the net?—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: there are things the search engines could do to help artists get paid for their work. Voluntary things, not legislation.—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: The whole trope of Northern California vs Southern California is bullshit. We like MSFT, Yahoo, just not Google.—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @dhowell @JTTaplin was it limewire, or labels paying lower royalties on digital sales compared to physical?—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

How long and How much do we keep paying artists? @mmasnick #tps2012—
Mohit Gupta (@mohitgupta) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick and @robpegoraro Copyright is to promote the progress of science and useful arts, not support aging music legends.—
Denise Howell (@dhowell) June 06, 2012

moderator @robpegoraro named this an intrastate food fight #tps2012—
Jessica Margolin (@kitode) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @jttaplin: SOPA sucked but we need industry solutions to protect copyrights and secure artist royalties — govt can't solve.—
Casey Oppenheim (@caseyoppenheim) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: people keep saying this is a business model problem. iTunes is pretty good and has all the music ever. [really?—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: Dylan got payed $8,500 for a million plays on spotify. [how much was he paid for radio play]—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

At #tps2012 listening to debate regarding access to online content balanced against artists' rights.—
kathleen (@kathleendwarner) June 06, 2012

the gloves are OFF #TPS2012—
Robert Leshner (@rleshner) June 06, 2012

Finally! A debate @mmasnik & Jon taplin- whoa Jon calling mike a shill for ccia #TPS2012—
  (@mlukanuski) June 06, 2012

Fight! Fight! Fight! RT @rleshner: the gloves are OFF #TPS2012—
John Stephenson (@stephenj05) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @robpegoraro's disclosure: Paid to write a blog post a week for the CEA, "so I'm not supposed to trash Blu-ray players here."—
Denise Howell (@dhowell) June 06, 2012

Techdirt's @mmasnick said Spotify pays artists 10 x more per listen than other services. He offered example at #TPS2012 #copyright panel.—
Computer&Comm.Ind.As (@ccianet) June 06, 2012

"The evils of the player piano…." Runners up for evilness: VCR, DVR, and Internet #TPS2012—
John Stephenson (@stephenj05) June 06, 2012

Rights and use of bandwidth should be 2 different topics. Bit torrent isn't actually responsible for every problem on the Internet #tps2012—
Anne Halsey (@pseudohalsey) June 06, 2012

Fast forward 10 years, and it should be clear that there will be no middlemen between artists and fans. Sorry, legacy middlemen. #TPS2012—
Robert Leshner (@rleshner) June 06, 2012

It's getting heated! "You [ @mmasnick ] are not a neutral blogger, you are a shill for the technology industry." – @JTTaplin #TPS2012—
Emily Castor (@emilycastor) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick and @jttalpin go at it. http://t.co/uWT9V26O—
Denise Howell (@dhowell) June 06, 2012

@JTTaplin says only 30% of Internet music traffic is legit, new biz models like spotify won't solve problem @mmasnick disagrees #tps2012—
Pete (@touschner) June 06, 2012

"Felony interference with your business model," neat coinage from @mmasnick on tech disruption with IP impact . . . . #tps2012—
Nigel Cameron (@nigelcameron) June 06, 2012

Jonathan Taplin of @annenberglab tries ad hominem attack at #TPS2012 debate, telling @mmasnick "You are a shill for the technology industry"—
Declan McCullagh (@declanm) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 maybe @JJTaplin can look for musicians yachts here: mtv.com/shows/cribs/se…—
Pine Apple 123! (@pine_apple123) June 06, 2012

best panel evah! moving onto 3d printing… #tps2012—
Jessica Margolin (@kitode) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 impact of 3D printing – what if every kids makes their own legos – @robpegoraro—
Angela Hey (@amhey) June 06, 2012

Um first sale doctrine anyone #tps2012—
Anne Halsey (@pseudohalsey) June 06, 2012

"His great reward in the Lego sky." #quotables #TPS2012—
  (@gagnier) June 06, 2012

If he's down in the hot place there are legos eternally strewn on the rug. RT @gagnier: "His gt reward in th Lego sky." #quotables #TPS2012—
Nigel Cameron (@nigelcameron) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JJTaplin: Can you unilaterally decide not to pay for things? @mmasnick: It's not me, it's a market price signal to you.—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Strongest point @MMasnick has made thus far is that we should listen if consumers prefer Spotify over Apple's pay-per-song model #TPS2012—
Berin Szoka (@BerinSzoka) June 06, 2012

At #tps2012 listening @mmasnick battle @jttalpin over intellectual property. Clear that we're in for major battles–old vs new—
Vivek Wadhwa (@wadhwa) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: somebody is making huge amounts of money off free goods. How much of Google's $30B was from this?—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick: Google added ContentID to YouTube that allows artists to get paid – we should encourage that.—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Not sure I agree with the "infinite supply" argument. Still have to factor in quality and the artistic merit and value. #TPS2012—
  (@gagnier) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: why doesn't google give all the ad money they raised from pirate sites to musicians?—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick: people going to pirate sites aren't making much money from ads, people don't click there—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Taplin (accidentally?) proposed a good idea – content providers doing CSR 2provide $ 4 writers, artists #tps2012—
Jessica Margolin (@kitode) June 06, 2012

Re 3D printing: Physical objects are not, in general, copyrightable. But could Lego copyright its designs? #TPS2012—
Steve Wildstrom (@swildstrom) June 06, 2012

I look forward to hearing Fred von Lohmann's rebuttal on all these remarks against Google re: copyright during next session. #tps2012—
Sarah Granger (@sarahgranger) June 06, 2012

#TPS2012 @mmasnick wins copyright debate by saying as supply of anything increases infinitely and suddenly, biz model should & must change.—
Adam Bonnifield (@adamsfallen) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin: do you agree that Pirate Bay and MegaUpload illegal businesses? @mmasnick: no, I think Piratebay is a search engine—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Google makes $ off of ads on pirate sites. They should put that revenue in a fund for artists to show good will. – @JTTaplin #TPS2012—
Emily Castor (@emilycastor) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick: disruptive innovation looks like it is illegal early on, until we work out how to make money. Look at the VCR.—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

@mmasnick is, by far, winning this debate; managing to make even pirates seem more valid than bigcontent #tps2012—
Chris Civil (@stardrummer) June 06, 2012

IP Debate at #TPS2012 too often falling into condescension and hyperbole—
Internet Law Center (@InternetLawCent) June 06, 2012

Great debate between @mmasnick and @jttaplin about copyright. #stealthisalbum #tps2012—
  (@PrivaSET) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick: when MegaUpload got shut down, the first people to speak out were musicians making money from it.—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Anyone else at #TPS2012 sick to death of never-ending #Copyfights? Ugh, #copyright… sucks up all the oxygen in the room on tech policy!—
Berin Szoka (@BerinSzoka) June 06, 2012

Sites like @tpbdotorg are rampantly used for illegal activity, but that doesn't mean they are illegal businesses. – @mmasnick #TPS2012—
Emily Castor (@emilycastor) June 06, 2012

@mmasnick points out innovating tech is the way out, eg YouTube #tps2012—
Jessica Margolin (@kitode) June 06, 2012

Best after lunch talk ever: @mmasnick & Jon taplin #TPS2012—
  (@mlukanuski) June 06, 2012

New tech has gained traction with illegal uses until legal uses caught up. Unfortunate? Sure. A reason to stop new tech? No #tps2012—
Anne Halsey (@pseudohalsey) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 q: why won't content industries pay google to filter the net? @JJTaplin: that sounds like a good idea—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

@JTTaplin is amusing, but not making much of a case against what he calls “piracy”… and the ad hominem attacks are getting tiring. #TPS2012—
Darius(Chris) Dunlap (@dariusdunlap) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @robpegoraro "We've learned Kimdotcom is a bad man, the private insurance model doesn't care about musicians falling on hard times"—
Denise Howell (@dhowell) June 06, 2012

Cannot be truer. Copyright was there to promote pursuit of knowledge and discovery of arts, not support mediocre RBT quality dudes. #tps2012—
Treespotter (@treespotter) June 06, 2012

Word of the day: "ENTREPRENERDS". #tps2012—
Mike Sax (@mikesax) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 q: what if the MPAA put half the money they put into lobbying into funding startups to make money for creators @JJTaplin: great!—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Big pirate sites offshore. #Drones the answer? #tps2012—
Nigel Cameron (@nigelcameron) June 06, 2012

“I think the MPAA and RIAA have been totally poisonous” – finally, @JTTaplin says something sensible. #TPS2012—
Darius(Chris) Dunlap (@dariusdunlap) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick: we're seeing great new platforms and tools to fund creation, with kickstarter funding a huge percentage of Sundance—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

poor @mmasnick trying to keep the conversation constructive… #tps2012—
Jessica Margolin (@kitode) June 06, 2012

Can we move on from copyright? #TPS2012—
  (@gagnier) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @mmasnick Amanda Palmer raised $1.2M to record an album on kickstarter @JTTaplin: it isn't useful for most people, unlike hollywood—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

No. They're obsessed with destroying copyright. RT @gagnier: Can we move on from copyright? #TPS2012—
Tom Giovanetti (@tgiovanetti) June 06, 2012

Room, or rather deck, getting lively here. I don't want this to stop. We need blood and it's close. #tps2012 @mmasnick vs @jttaplin #IP—
Nigel Cameron (@nigelcameron) June 06, 2012

PLEASE, YES! RT @gagnier: Can we move on from copyright? #TPS2012—
Berin Szoka (@BerinSzoka) June 06, 2012

Distributed models: content when you want and any device you want. Also, admission Millennials don't want to steal everything. #TPS2012—
  (@gagnier) June 06, 2012

Why don't MPAA/RIAA invest in entrepreneurs who want to help artists make $, instead of just lobbying? – Nelson of @hackersfounders #TPS2012—
Emily Castor (@emilycastor) June 06, 2012

"The problem wi Holywood is it's stuck in old business models . . windowing … but they are going to get beyond it." @jttaplin #tps2012—
Nigel Cameron (@nigelcameron) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 @JTTaplin if Hollywood doesn't switch from the release window system like music did, they're screwed—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

#tps2012 did @JTTaplin really say that @kickstarter wasn't any use for most people because you can't fund a hollywood blockbuster there?—
Kevin Marks (@kevinmarks) June 06, 2012

Down goes Frazier at #TPS2012. Jon Taplin gets clocked clean by TechDirt's Michael Massnick in IP Debate..—
Internet Law Center (@InternetLawCent) June 06, 2012

surprised no one at #TPS2012 #copyright catfight raised possibility of blanket compulsory license as possible solution. (Not that I favor)—
  (@AdamThierer) June 06, 2012

That was the liveliest panel I've ever moderated! Thanks to @mmasnick and @JTTaplin for keeping it interesting. #TPS2012—
Rob Pegoraro (@robpegoraro) June 06, 2012